{"id":1904,"date":"2022-02-10T00:00:00","date_gmt":"2022-02-10T08:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/carnegie25live.wpenginepowered.com\/?p=1904"},"modified":"2025-12-16T11:21:28","modified_gmt":"2025-12-16T19:21:28","slug":"tim-talks-with-david-kirp","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/tim-talks-with-david-kirp\/","title":{"rendered":"Tim Talks With David Kirp"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"gb-container gb-container-9f092ff3\">\n<div class=\"gb-container gb-container-f749780f\">\n\n<p><em>In these Tim Talks, Carnegie President Tim Knowles engages \u201cfriends, allies, and conspirators\u201d in micro-conversations about education, equity, and the future of learning.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed aligncenter is-type-video is-provider-vimeo wp-block-embed-vimeo wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Tim Talks With David Kirp\" src=\"https:\/\/player.vimeo.com\/video\/672093249?dnt=1&amp;app_id=122963\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"autoplay; fullscreen; picture-in-picture; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div><figcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\"><em>Writer and educator David Kirp talks to Carnegie President Tim Knowles about scalable and sustainable programs in New York, Georgia, and Columbia that are getting teaching and learning right.<\/em><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Walking-through-the-door access doesn\u2019t solve higher education\u2019s biggest challenge: boosting the number of students who graduate from community colleges and\/or transfer to a four-year program.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>David Kirp&nbsp;is a professor at the&nbsp;Goldman School of Public Policy&nbsp;at the&nbsp;University of California, Berkeley, a member of the&nbsp;National Academy of Education, a contributing writer to&nbsp;<em>The New York Times,<\/em>&nbsp;and a senior scholar at the Learning Policy Institute. He is a member of the&nbsp;American Academy of Arts and Sciences&nbsp;and the National Academy of Education. A prolific writer, in his seventeen books and hundreds of articles, he has concentrated on pivotal education and youth issues from cradle to college and career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In this micro-conversation with Tim Knowles, David uses what he calls the \u201csix most irresistible words in the English language: \u2018Let me tell you a story&#8217;\u201d to give examples of programs that are getting it right when it comes to addressing educational inequities. He tells the story of City University of New York\u2019s ASAP program that is increasing the graduation rate of underrepresented students in community college from 25% to nearly 70% and doubled the rate in four-year universities; Georgia State that merged with a community college to increase the numbers of students transitioning smoothly to a four-year university; and Escuela Nueva\u2019s deeper learning model\u2014which began in Columbia, but has expanded to Brazil, Tanzania, and Vietnam, among others\u2014that has successfully educated millions of students.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u201cIt\u2019s a remarkable model, and I think it transfers very well because it is a deeper learning model in a very real and powerful sense. \u2026 It\u2019s doable, it\u2019s interesting. When I\u2019ve talked to educators in this country about it, they get excited.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Tim Knowles (TK):<\/strong>&nbsp;Welcome everyone to a micro-conversation with David Kirp. David, for those of you who don\u2019t know, is a scholar at Berkeley. He is a member of the National Academy. He\u2019s also a member of the American Academy for Arts and Sciences. He is the author\u2026 David, I was disappointed to learn you\u2019ve only written 17 books. I\u2019m looking forward to the 18th. He is a New York Times columnist, and maybe most important of all, he is one of the nation\u2019s sense-makers on matters education. So, welcome, David.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David Kirp (DK):<\/strong>&nbsp;It\u2019s great to be here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>(TK):<\/strong>&nbsp;I\u2019m going to plunge right in, and my first question does reference one of your books, \u201cThe College Dropout Scandal\u201d and in it, Robert Reich says that you have, \u201crevealed higher education\u2019s dirty little secret.\u201d Forty percent of college freshmen don\u2019t graduate, with many winding up worse off because of the debt they incur.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>At Carnegie, this is at the heart of one of our new strategic priorities, to upturn or overturn post-secondary systems in higher education that reify inequities. So, what should we be thinking about as we undertake this endeavor? Are there cracks that we can leverage to split the system open?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>(DK):<\/strong>&nbsp;The six most irresistible words in the English language are, \u201cLet me tell you a story.\u201d So, the best way I know how to answer that question, is with a story.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, City University of New York, CUNY, is one of my favorite institutions because they do amazing things, especially at the community college level. And there\u2019s a program called CUNY Start. The students in CUNY Start have failed every one of their entrance exams. They failed the writing exam, the math exam, the reading, all of them. Most of them are in their early-mid 20s.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>One woman \u2026 They\u2019re living very complicated lives. One woman was expressing breast milk during breaks in the cafeteria. Another woman, when she\u2019s writing about what a tough time she\u2019s had, she talks about gunfire in the family, getting raped by a stepfather. She was up to 12 years old at that point.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And another woman just absolutely blew my mind, in ninth grade the guidance counselor calls this woman in and says, \u201cYou realize you should just drop out because you\u2019re just going to get pregnant and you have to drop out anyway. So why don\u2019t you do it now?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And here they are, right, here are these students, and at the end of a semester, 90% of those students are fully prepared to begin regular community college. They will join another, better-known program called ASAP, and those students are going to, 70% of their students graduate. It\u2019s community college, they graduate in three years. That is substantially \u2026 the six-year rate of graduation for public universities is 50%, four-year universities.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So what happens? Well, I sat in for a few days and I watched the teaching, and the teaching is astonishing. I just think about an English class in which these kids are reading\u2026 they\u2019re not kids. These young adults are reading V.S. Naipaul, and they\u2019re just being barraged with questions. There\u2019s no lecturing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The math class, the day I was there, mostly they\u2019re doing more interesting things, but I was there for session on simplifying square roots. And the teacher puts a number up on the board, puts a formula on the board, can you simplify this? And then there\u2019s a discussion. And there were 16 students in the class, and 15 of them say no, and one of them says, \u201cYes,\u201d and that\u2019s Maria. And then the class talks more about why, she talks about why, and then the class discusses what\u2019s going on, and they decide that she\u2019s right. She, by the way, turns out to be a very shy girl who never talks. She\u2019s a Filipina immigrant.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So what do they do? It\u2019s a very intense program. It\u2019s 25 hours a week. They have a huge amount of personal stuff. Other students would talk about, \u201cI have your back.\u201d There is somebody for these young adults all the time, and they need this kind of help because they are, as I said, juggling lots of different lives.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I tell you that story, which I found a norm when I was there. It\u2019s a really moving moment to say one thing, you\u2019re going to believe in these students and you\u2019re willing to invest in them intelligently, so you\u2019ve got a curriculum that looks a lot like the Statway curriculum in math, the Carnegie curriculum. I don\u2019t know where the English course comes from.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>They spent a long time developing materials for this course. The teachers get mentored, they get hired, they spend a semester shadowing a teacher in the program before they\u2019re teaching on their own. It\u2019s an expensive program, it\u2019s a big investment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But another thing that\u2019s important is that here\u2019s a university and a state that has made these students a priority. And one big issue, one big explanation for this scandal, the scandal is the low graduation rates, we know what to do to raise them, and most universities don\u2019t really care because there\u2019s nothing, there are no disincentives for doing badly. Or differently put, there are no real incentives to doing well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you invest money in improving your graduation rate, in working with students, in giving them a sense of belonging, in looking at all the barriers from the time they are admitted to the time that they get their diploma, and there are a lot of barriers, and then you start taking them down as, for example, Georgia State famously has done. If you don\u2019t do that, then you\u2019re going to be in the same place, you\u2019re going to be and what you\u2019re going to do by way of your institution, by way of reforms, is you are going to do little experiments, little programs on the side, they go on for a year or two. They don\u2019t get leveled up. They disappear, nobody evaluates them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>One of the great things about CUNY is that all their programs are evaluated by mathematic\u2026 They use matched samples of students, so they know what they\u2019re doing. But they care, and I think that\u2019s, to create an incentive system for universities in which they are rewarded for using the tools that we know are going to make a difference for these students and are particularly rewarded for increasing the graduation rate among first-generation, minority, and low-incomes. You can do a lot, and that\u2019s the lesson of CUNY.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I mean, the CUNY ASAP program, the program for the regular community college students, not a very, these are not complicated things to do. This is not brain surgery. They took\u2026 their graduation rate went from 25% to 60%, close to 70%. They took the same program to the four-year school and I said to them, there\u2019s a category mistake here. This is not a community college program. This is a student success program. It will work just as well at the four-year college level. They did this at John Jay, a Manhattan college. Lo and behold, they doubled the graduation rate. Same program, same kind of resolute focus on what students work, planning schedules in a way that allows students to really balance their life, and making sure that there is a trained professional who understands the academic stuff and understands the person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But another thing that&#8217;s important is that here&#8217;s a university and a state that has made these students a priority. And one big issue, one big explanation for this scandal, the scandal is the low graduation rates, we know what to do to raise them, and most universities don&#8217;t really care because there&#8217;s nothing, there are no disincentives for doing badly.<a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/intent\/tweet?text=But+another+thing+that%27s+important+is+that+here%27s+a+university+and+a+state+that+has+made+these+stu...via+%40carnegiefdn&amp;url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.carnegiefoundation.org%2Fblog%2Ftim-talks-with-david-kirp%2F\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Twitter<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>(TK):<\/strong>&nbsp;So David this feels, this issue of making sure the incentives are right or there aren\u2019t, conversely, there aren\u2019t perverse incentives to keep people not paying attention to this seems absolutely salient for today, given Biden\u2019s plan to make community colleges across the board free. And I have joked that if one thing comes out of the infrastructure bill, it\u2019ll be Joe Biden\u2019s dedication to community college. But in a recent piece you pointed out this quote, \u201cWalking through the door access doesn\u2019t solve higher education\u2019s biggest challenge, boosting the number of students who graduate from community colleges and\/or transfer to a four-year program.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I remember in Chicago when Rahm Emanuel, mayor, basically declared success because the community colleges in Chicago had finally got to 10% graduation rates. And it was success relatively. It really was, it had been 6.3. And nationwide the numbers are 17% of students from low-income families who are graduating from community colleges. So how can in this moment, in this milieu, community colleges become, using your term, engines of mobility. If making them free is clearly an inadequate treatment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>(DK):<\/strong>&nbsp;No, actually I would go beyond that. I think it\u2019s a perverse treatment. For better or worse, Jill Biden has spent her career as a community college teacher. And most community college teachers that I know are passionate about their students. I\u2019m sure she is no exception. I\u2019m sure like other community college teachers she\u2019ll have stories of students who\u2019ve made it, students who would come back after umpteen years. They\u2019re now doing X, Y, and Z, if it weren\u2019t for you, et cetera, et cetera. Here\u2019s why it\u2019s perverse. You mentioned the graduation rates.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I will talk about how you can improve those graduation rates substantially, but if all you do is make community college free, then students who otherwise could be admitted to essentially open admission four-year regional universities are going to go to community college.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I looked at Tennessee, which was the state that was Obama\u2019s sort of star state in this territory. And they make community colleges free, and everybody loved this, and they wind up in about the same place that Rahm Emanuel\u2019s Chicago is. I think they got up to 16% overall, not urban numbers, the urban rates looked very much like Chicago. And those same students could be admitted to Middle Tennessee State, which is a random regional school there. The graduation rate is 50%, six years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So 50% of those, you could get a bachelor\u2019s degree, 50% chance of getting a bachelor\u2019s degree. You\u2019ve got one third of the chance of getting an associate\u2019s degree. So, unless you think about, in terms of finances, unless you connect community colleges to four-years, your heart is in the right place. The inadvertent, the unintended consequences are disastrous.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So for starters, you need to really connect the community college with a four-year university and really connect means there needs to be a clear pathway, which says, if\/when you graduate from community college, you will automatically be admitted to the university. And beyond that, that\u2019s a start, but it\u2019s not enough. University professors tend to be quite snobby about community college courses, and they say that\u2019s great that you took physics I, but that\u2019s not our physics I. Bye, do it over again.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>At places like University of Central Florida, Valencia, those faculty work on each other\u2019s campuses, they jointly develop courses. So they\u2019re going to be taught differently because, again, the students who show up at community college\u2026 At the University of Central Florida, the average GPA of an entering student is 3.85. So they\u2019re a very different cast of characters from the students who wind up at community college.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But what that royal road to access has done there is that it substantially increased the graduation rate, and those students graduate at about the same rate as the true freshmen. They stumble early on in the tech stuff and the sciences, but they get caught up eventually and that\u2019s remarkable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The same thing is now happening at Georgia State, where Georgia State was merged with a community college system called Perimeter. Perimeter\u2019s graduation rate when they started out was 6%, and basically what they\u2019ve done at Perimeter is essentially what they did with Georgia State, including the fact that students at Perimeter could take courses at Georgia State. And they are all automatically admitted to the university, and their support staff for them, and they use all the analytic tools to begin to identify who\u2019s having trouble and intervening early, all the things that we know how to do. And they\u2019re now up to 20%, three years, 6% to 20%.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>They\u2019re on their way. And I\u2019ve got no doubt that they will do better. So unless you build in that connection both structurally, again, in terms of institution centers, financially, you\u2019re going to wind up with the Rahm Emanuel story, or the Tennessee story.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>(TK):<\/strong>&nbsp;You introduced formerly to a group, Escuela Nueva, which is from Columbia, recently. I thought it would be wonderful if you would say something about Escuela Nueva and why America should pay attention to it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>(DK):<\/strong>&nbsp;So I\u2019m not\u2026 I\u2019ve been around long enough to be very skeptical of fads and fancies. You come upon Escuela Nueva, it\u2019s been around for about 50 years and it\u2019s over time, in Columbia primarily but elsewhere as well. Every place from Brazil, to Vietnam, to Tanzania. It\u2019s educated millions of kids, that in itself is a staunch.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The data is impressive. And what they do is amazing because starts as a program for one-room school houses, but it really is a program for education generally. Students are asked or given a problem to deal with and an introduction by a teacher in a small group, and then they work through it individually, and then collect that amongst themselves. The teacher comes back, sees how well they\u2019re doing, gives them the next problem, and off they go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It\u2019s a learning method in which the teacher is playing a very different role from what she often does. The other important prong of this program is that it\u2019s a democracy program. These kids are making decisions about school issues. I don\u2019t know any high school student council that\u2019s given the authority to make, starting with they take their own attendance, they keep the school in order, they decide what materials that are from the local community will be in the school and used in the school.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>They run a day program for parents, it is for their parents. It\u2019s not a very complicated program to implement. This is something that Escuela Nueva has learned how to do. They\u2019ve been able to build networks of teachers who sustain the program. They start as a rural program, but they\u2019ve done all sorts of other things. All these displaced kids in Columbia, for example, displaced by violence. They developed a whole program for them. They developed a program for not just elementary schools, but middle schools, et cetera.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It\u2019s a remarkable model, and I think it transfers very well because it is at one hand, it\u2019s a deeper learning model in a very real and powerful sense, because a lot of the work is in fact the kind of project-based work that deeper learning traffics in. It\u2019s a model in which people learn about the importance of teaching one another, about the community and not just the individual. And it\u2019s a model that teaches, that really does give these students the skills that they need to be effective citizens and leaders in a democratic society. And Lord knows Columbia needs that, and Lord knows at this moment in time the United States needs it at least as much.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s a model in which people learn about the importance of teaching one another, about the community and not just the individual. And it&#8217;s a model that teaches, that really does give these students the skills that they need to be effective citizens and leaders in a democratic society.<a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/intent\/tweet?text=It%27s+a+model+in+which+people+learn+about+the+importance+of+teaching+one+another%2C+about+the+communi...via+%40carnegiefdn&amp;url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.carnegiefoundation.org%2Fblog%2Ftim-talks-with-david-kirp%2F\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Twitter<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>(TK):<\/strong>&nbsp;And as you say, unlike many other shiny objects in the educational ecosystem, it is tested and scalable. And I think that\u2019s one thing that many of the shiny objects that we encounter in the U.S. are not. You made an observation, I said that was the last question, but this Escuela Nueva raises it. You made an observation to me a few months ago that you think that some of the most interesting innovations, overwrought word, but are emerging from places like the African continent, Latin America, and not the West. Not Europe, not the U.S. Can you say a little bit about that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>(DK):<\/strong>&nbsp;Yeah, that\u2019s something that I really am learning about, and I think these are countries in which the problems of the education system are well-known. They\u2019re not by and large countries that have huge pride in what they\u2019re doing, and somebody comes along with a simple, doable, established idea. They\u2019re willing to adopt it wholesale.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I mean, this is what happened in Vietnam. The Vietnamese come to Columbia, look at the program, take the materials away, and now countrywide in Vietnam there is this program. And if you\u2019ve got a strong central government they can say, \u201cThis is what we want to do, and this is what we\u2019re going to fund,\u201d and it happens.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It\u2019s enormously impressive to observe. I mean, we live in a country that\u2019s plagued by the \u201cnot made here\u201d syndrome. So the idea that there are many other things that stand in the way of bringing reforms to scale, which we know well. And a lot of those things, elected school boards with political agendas, leaders that come in, superintendent school chiefs who come and go, fads and fancies, all the rest of it, the lack of teachers that come from the communities in which their students come from, all of those factors stand in the way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I would hope that a program like Escuela Nueva, I would hope that Escuela Nueva could demonstrate that it\u2019s not a fad and fancy, and that there would be places, no illusion that America is going to adopt anything like a single model, but I can imagine that being a sustainable model in the way Bob Slavin\u2019s \u201cSuccess for All\u201d program has been a sustainable model. It\u2019s doable, it\u2019s interesting. When I\u2019ve talked to educators in this country about it, they get excited. And you got excited, which\u2013<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>(TK):<\/strong>&nbsp;I did, and when we put out this micro-conversation, we\u2019ll put out links so that people can learn about it. And my hope is that we can find ways to land it in a few places, because it does have also at its heart a learning model that is deeply constructivist, engaging, and not boring, which is one of the pandemics that\u2013<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>(DK):<\/strong>&nbsp;Well, this is what happens when you have a founder who got her PhD at that university down the block from you, Stanford. And whose mother was the first woman to get a PhD in the Education School at Stanford. So, certain Bay Area history there that goes along with the story.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>(TK):<\/strong>&nbsp;Well David, thank you so much, I appreciate it. I promised this would be quick, and I look forward to seeing you soon, and good luck in Finland.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>(DK):<\/strong>&nbsp;Thank you, it\u2019s been a lot of fun. See you soon. Bye-bye.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>(TK):<\/strong>&nbsp;Thanks, David.<\/p>\n\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<div aria-hidden=\"true\" class=\"wp-block-fsb-flexible-spacer fsb-flexible-spacer\"><div class=\"fsb-flexible-spacer__device fsb-flexible-spacer__device--lg\" style=\"height:80px\"><\/div><div class=\"fsb-flexible-spacer__device fsb-flexible-spacer__device--md\" style=\"height:80px\"><\/div><div class=\"fsb-flexible-spacer__device fsb-flexible-spacer__device--sm\" style=\"height:80px\"><\/div><\/div>\n\n\n<div class=\"gb-container gb-container-e3118763 alignfull\">\n\n<div aria-hidden=\"true\" class=\"wp-block-fsb-flexible-spacer fsb-flexible-spacer\"><div class=\"fsb-flexible-spacer__device fsb-flexible-spacer__device--lg\" style=\"height:56px\"><\/div><div class=\"fsb-flexible-spacer__device fsb-flexible-spacer__device--md\" style=\"height:56px\"><\/div><div class=\"fsb-flexible-spacer__device fsb-flexible-spacer__device--sm\" style=\"height:56px\"><\/div><\/div>\n\n\n<div 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src=\"https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/01\/Skills-Prog-822x484px.png\" class=\"gb-image-29525fe2\" alt=\"\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/01\/Skills-Prog-822x484px.png 822w, https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/01\/Skills-Prog-822x484px-300x180.png 300w, https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/01\/Skills-Prog-822x484px-768x462.png 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 822px) 100vw, 822px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n<div class=\"gb-container gb-container-d509fede\">\n<h2 class=\"gb-headline gb-headline-03c3d1f8 gb-headline-text\">Carnegie Foundation and ETS Release Skills Progressions for Collaboration, Communication and Critical Thinking\u00a0<\/h2>\n\n<p class=\"gb-headline gb-headline-9fa906de dcs_blueChevron gb-headline-text\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/carnegie-foundation-and-ets-release-skills-progressions-for-collaboration-communication-and-critical-thinking\/\">Read more<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n<\/div><\/div>\n\n<div class=\"gb-grid-column gb-grid-column-9595ddd7\"><div class=\"gb-container gb-container-9595ddd7\">\n\n<div class=\"gb-grid-wrapper gb-grid-wrapper-cd24ae20 gb-query-loop-wrapper\">\n<div class=\"gb-grid-column gb-grid-column-523c835e gb-query-loop-item post-3745 post type-post status-publish format-standard has-post-thumbnail hentry category-media tag-featured\"><div class=\"gb-container gb-container-523c835e\"><a class=\"gb-container-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/rising-demand-for-career-education-prompts-college-board-to-expand-its-footprint\/\"><\/a>\n<div class=\"gb-container gb-container-8a608c3d\">\n<figure class=\"gb-block-image gb-block-image-0004511f\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"822\" height=\"494\" src=\"https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/Education-Week.jpg\" class=\"gb-image-0004511f\" alt=\"\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/Education-Week.jpg 822w, https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/Education-Week-300x180.jpg 300w, https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/Education-Week-768x462.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 822px) 100vw, 822px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n<div class=\"gb-container gb-container-fbdded7a\">\n<h2 class=\"gb-headline gb-headline-b6bee17e gb-headline-text\">Rising Demand for Career Education Prompts College Board to Expand Its Footprint<\/h2>\n\n<p class=\"gb-headline gb-headline-f50001e0 dcs_blueChevron gb-headline-text\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/rising-demand-for-career-education-prompts-college-board-to-expand-its-footprint\/\">Read more<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n<\/div><\/div>\n\n<div class=\"gb-grid-column gb-grid-column-3b1234bf\"><div class=\"gb-container gb-container-3b1234bf\">\n\n<div class=\"gb-grid-wrapper gb-grid-wrapper-b1bd1865 gb-query-loop-wrapper\">\n<div class=\"gb-grid-column gb-grid-column-78bd1b01 gb-query-loop-item post-3928 post type-post status-publish format-standard has-post-thumbnail hentry category-stories tag-featured tag-opportunity-colleges-and-universitites\"><div class=\"gb-container gb-container-78bd1b01\"><a class=\"gb-container-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/opportunity-colleges-and-universities-series-university-of-illinois-chicago-profile\/\"><\/a>\n<div class=\"gb-container gb-container-6aea97cb\">\n<figure class=\"gb-block-image gb-block-image-3d8b82a2\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1081\" height=\"665\" src=\"https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/03\/OCU-Profiles-Social-UIC-1.jpg\" class=\"gb-image-3d8b82a2\" alt=\"\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/03\/OCU-Profiles-Social-UIC-1.jpg 1081w, https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/03\/OCU-Profiles-Social-UIC-1-300x185.jpg 300w, https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/03\/OCU-Profiles-Social-UIC-1-1024x630.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/03\/OCU-Profiles-Social-UIC-1-768x472.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1081px) 100vw, 1081px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n<div class=\"gb-container gb-container-b7d77a93\">\n<h2 class=\"gb-headline gb-headline-00ebe497 gb-headline-text\">Opportunity Colleges and Universities Series: University of Illinois Chicago Profile<\/h2>\n\n<p class=\"gb-headline gb-headline-7a9d3f01 dcs_blueChevron gb-headline-text\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/opportunity-colleges-and-universities-series-university-of-illinois-chicago-profile\/\">Read more<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n<\/div><\/div>\n\n<div class=\"gb-grid-column gb-grid-column-6e4c6215\"><div class=\"gb-container gb-container-6e4c6215\">\n\n<div class=\"gb-grid-wrapper gb-grid-wrapper-140a62b5 gb-query-loop-wrapper\">\n<div class=\"gb-grid-column gb-grid-column-467ccb83 gb-query-loop-item post-1066 post type-post status-publish format-standard has-post-thumbnail hentry category-video tag-featured tag-future tag-higher-education\"><div class=\"gb-container gb-container-467ccb83\"><a class=\"gb-container-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/podcast-the-next-50-years-of-higher-ed-what-leaders-need-to-know\/\"><\/a>\n<div class=\"gb-container gb-container-8d506024\">\n<figure class=\"gb-block-image gb-block-image-1f9cf2fe\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"822\" height=\"494\" src=\"https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/Thumbnail-Next-50-Years.png\" class=\"gb-image-1f9cf2fe\" alt=\"\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/Thumbnail-Next-50-Years.png 822w, https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/Thumbnail-Next-50-Years-300x180.png 300w, https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/Thumbnail-Next-50-Years-768x462.png 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 822px) 100vw, 822px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n<div class=\"gb-container gb-container-48f520c9\">\n<h2 class=\"gb-headline gb-headline-ee1ac036 gb-headline-text\">Podcast: The Next 50 Years of Higher Ed \u2013 What Leaders Need to Know<\/h2>\n\n<p class=\"gb-headline gb-headline-1f666cd2 dcs_blueChevron gb-headline-text\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/podcast-the-next-50-years-of-higher-ed-what-leaders-need-to-know\/\">Read more<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n<\/div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<div aria-hidden=\"true\" class=\"wp-block-fsb-flexible-spacer fsb-flexible-spacer\"><div class=\"fsb-flexible-spacer__device fsb-flexible-spacer__device--lg\" style=\"height:100px\"><\/div><div class=\"fsb-flexible-spacer__device fsb-flexible-spacer__device--md\" style=\"height:100px\"><\/div><div class=\"fsb-flexible-spacer__device fsb-flexible-spacer__device--sm\" style=\"height:100px\"><\/div><\/div>\n\n<\/div>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In these Tim Talks, Carnegie President Tim Knowles engages \u201cfriends, allies, and conspirators\u201d in micro-conversations about education, equity, and the &#8230; <a title=\"Tim Talks With David Kirp\" class=\"read-more\" href=\"https:\/\/www.carnegiefoundation.org\/tim-talks-with-david-kirp\/\" aria-label=\"Read more about Tim Talks With David Kirp\">Read more<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":3,"featured_media":2030,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"inline_featured_image":false,"ghostkit_customizer_options":"","ghostkit_custom_css":"","ghostkit_custom_js_head":"","ghostkit_custom_js_foot":"","ghostkit_typography":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[20],"tags":[],"client_controls":[],"class_list":["post-1904","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-stories"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.9 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Tim Talks With David Kirp - Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" 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